[Bringer of the Last Gift] erroneously applying card effect when not cast from hand
Bringer of the Last Gift is a black creature card (2 black, 6 other) with the following card text:
"When Bringer of the Last Gift enters the battlefield, if you cast it, each player sacrifices all other creatures they control. Then each player returns all creature cards from their graveyard that weren't put there this way to the battlefield."
Further, the card ruling on Gatherer reads:
"Bringer of the Last Gift's last ability triggers if you cast it from any zone. It doesn't trigger if you put Bringer of the Last Gift onto the battlefield without casting it."
In a match today my opponent cast [Invasion of Amonkhet], and then removed its counters to trigger its transformation ability, a creature with the following card text:
"You may have Lazotep Convert enter the battlefield as a copy of any creature card in a graveyard, except it's a 4/4 black Zombie in addition to its other colors and types."
The opponent targeted the [Bringer of the Last Gift] in the graveyard, which then entered the battlefield as a copy - it was NOT cast - but proceeded to trigger as if it were.
This is clearly contrary to not only the card text of [Bringer of the Last Gift], where the "if/then" text can only trigger if it was cast, but also contrary to the Gatherer ruling which explicitly states the creature must be CAST for the final portion of the card text to trigger.
Please update the Arena client to properly address the function of this card. Further, if you are not able to apply an additional "win" to my account to correct the erroneous loss I received because of this faulty interaction, then I will happily accept 300 gems or 3 packs from any current Standard set.
Typheous_the_Mad#99489
shared this idea
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DAC169#34537
commented
Again, it's really simple:
You cast the clone. The clone IS the creature as it enters the battlefield. Therefore, you cast the creature. -
Typheous_the_Mad#99489
commented
It literally says on the card text: "...if you put Bringer of the Last Gift onto the battlefield without casting it." Nobody is arguing that cloning a creature shouldn't trigger an "enter the battlefield" effect. What is at issue here is whether cloning a creature in a graveyard constitutes "casting" it, and the answer is clearly no as 701.4a makes clear. A spell needs its mana cost to be paid in order for it to be cast. Bringer of the Last Gift has a mana cost of 2 black, 6 other. If 2 black, 6 other is not spent, then Bringer of the Last Gift has not been cast.
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Rezzahan#77802
commented
The permanent that enters the battlefield has to be put there from the stack as the result of a resolving spell, and that spell has to have been cast. Nowhere does it say, that the spell you have cast has to be the Bringer. If the permanent the spell becomes enters as a Bringer, the trigger condition is met. That's why casting any Clone and choosing to copy the Bringer will result in the trigger firing. Lazotep Convert is a Clone, the only difference to normal Clones is, that it copies a card in the graveyard instead of a permanent on the battlefield.
Reanimating or putting a Bringer on the field directly from the hand/library/graveyard/exile will not trigger it, but that is not the case here. A clone spell was cast and resolved, the card that represents the spell on the stack became the same card on the battlefield and had the characteristics of the Bringer from that very moment on.
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DAC169#34537
commented
I really don't know what's so hard for you to understand here. Lazotep Convert was cast. It entered as Bringer of the Last Gift. Therefore, "Bringer of the Last Gift" was cast. And there is no token, as Lazotep Convert is a card that doesn't use tokens.
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Typheous_the_Mad#99489
commented
This issue isn't the "enter the battlefield" ability, as addressed in 707.5, but rather whether it meets the card text definition of "cast". In the scenario I've described, Bringer of the Last Gift was never cast. A token copy of it was *generated* (not cast), and that token *entered the battlefield* as Bringer of the Last Gift (not cast). In no instance was a card named Bringer of the Last Gift *cast* - and that's exactly what 701.4a addresses.
Think of it this way: if Bringer of the Last Gift was meant to be a card that could enter the battlefield out of the graveyard without paying its mana cost (as many creatures are already allowed to do), then why would the explicit text of having to *cast* the card be included?
I appreciate the intent to cheese overpowered creatures into play, but the rules make it clear this is not one of those creatures.
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Rezzahan#77802
commented
But he DID cast it. And it doesn't have to be the Bringer's cost that's being paid, it has to be the Convert's cost, which is "free" because it was cast by defeating a Battle. The back face of a Battle is CAST, not simply put on the battlefield.
The same would happen if you cast any other Clone normally, and choose to copy the Bringer. You did cast the Clone, it entered as a Bringer, trigger goes off.
707.5. An object that enters the battlefield “as a copy” or “that’s a copy” of another object becomes a
copy as it enters the battlefield. It doesn’t enter the battlefield, and then become a copy of that
permanent. If the text that’s being copied includes any abilities that replace the enters-the-battlefield
event (such as “enters the battlefield with” or “as [this] enters the battlefield” abilities), those
abilities will take effect. Also, any enters-the-battlefield triggered abilities of the copy will have a
chance to trigger. -
Typheous_the_Mad#99489
commented
Entering as a copy of a creature in a graveyard is not casting; it's copying a creature in a graveyard. The Gatherer rules text makes this clear regardless: "if you put Bringer of the Last Gift onto the battlefield without casting it", the ability does not trigger. Casting means to pay it's cost (see MTG rules 701.4a). At no point in the described interaction above does Bringer of the Last Gift's costs get paid; therefore, it is not "cast".
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Rezzahan#77802
commented
What's faulty is your rules knowledge, there is no bug here, this was handled correctly.
What entered the battlefield was the Lazotep Convert, which was cast without paying the mana cost, and it entered as a copy of the Bringer (the choice to copy doesn't target, it's a replacement effect that changes how the creature enters the battlefield). ETB triggers are checked after the fact, so after the Convert has entered as a Bringer. Thus the trigger condition was met: it entered the battlefield, and it was cast.