Your hand smoothing algorithm is probably one of the worst things to be done to MTG. As it is it from first hand experience it is hurting your business as I know many long time players that have walked away from MTG because of it. I do understand you put it in to draw in new players but when you have players that have spent hundreds of thousands f dollars over the years leaving because of it , it really isn't helping. As a suggestion don't force the veteran players to use it if it is supposed to be a buff then giving us the option to turn it off shouldn't be a problem and the coding to put in an option is extremely easy with the old shuffler algorithm you wouldn't even have to write any coding for it. I think this is probably the only compromise that will make hand smoothing actually function as it was intended to, to draw in new players without alienating the old ones and probably the best option for the health of your business.
"WOTC is located in the US State of Washington. You can file a consumer protection complaint online with the Washington State Attorney General’s office at https://fortress.wa.gov/atg/formhandler/ago/ComplaintForm.aspx. Basically complain that due to a defect in their product, you aren’t getting what you paid for, nor are you getting appropriately compensated, and you feel that is a violation of consumer protection laws."
Use this as you will.
gone away#61652 commented
So things we know about WOTC's developmental decisions with Arena vs. MTGO
-No public leaderboards
-Almost no communication allowed between players
-No spectator mode, even as they claimed to be working on becoming a legitimate eSport
-cannot share your hand or next card with yourself or opponent.
-Instituted a 'hand smoothing' algorithm that they only mentioned to players after getting caught.
-admit to manipulation of matchups for different formats, are obsessed with mirror matches
Things I have documented:
-Several hundred <2% liklihood of probability draws (complete games, not opening hands) based only on lands and non lands drawn
-a spreadsheet tracking my play vs draw in draft only that tracks 600~ opportunities (starting fresh after they accidentally deleted my account 8 months into my personal information request that was a day away from the limit set to give me this information. ). in the 292 opportunities prior to emailing them complaining and informing them about the spreadsheet I am -30 (161 draw to 131 play for a -11 percent spread @ 55-44%). starting from my email complaint I go 18 play to 3 draws and in 231 attempts from day of complaint I go 118 play to 113 draw bringing overall spread of sample of nearly 550 attempts to 47.7 to 52.3 (4.6 percent skew of even probability.
-hundreds of game videos that are clearly impossible from get go to win, most frequently before I reach the 'big prize jump' of an event.
-18 months of emails before finally receiving my 'personal information ' which is some amateurish screenshots, indecipherable proprietary code and files that won't open. During which time I gave up after unreasonable paperwork demands, I battled to keep them focused on the one account I was asking about instead of interrogating me over accounts they claim were mine (they claim to keep almost no information on customers many times but are adamant they know of several other accounts with similar payment sources and ip addresses but with unrelated emails.
on the day before they were to finally hand over this long sought after personal information my account is thoroughly, accidentally deleted. this account I've had since RNA, when there was a WHOLE lotta fucky occurrences. Blatant cover up. I am compensated with several hundred mythic wildcards as well as magically everything the old account had, including user name and number.
-dozens of complaints from me that are responded to with a firm letter claiming the shuffler has been tested and is running exactly as intended (which I believe) and that every player has the same playing field (which I do not). ai have asked dozens of times to be directed to evidence of this, as any online casino game proudly displays on their website. these requests are NEVER acknowledged, even dozens of times in.
- the game cheats and has gotten a little more obvious and brazen about it since RNA.
-I now play bots to stop my winning any reasonable prize jump some percentage of the time.
-in draft, if I modify my deck I will be waiting for opponent at least 30 seconds and sometimes more than one minute while deck is analyzed and appropriate opponent to lose to is selected. this never happens on ladder.
-Wizards owes me a lot of money, that I will be collecting at some point. they can be sure of that.
there's much more but I'm worried about losing this post in posting.
The shuffler is broke. I played actual magic and every digital version of magic for years and i have never had that many lands or just no lands in hand. I will say its weird because i mulligan every game now when i play this game because when u draw 7 lands in a deck that has 22 lands in it back to back in the same game. Then Next game opposite u draw all creatures no Fxxxxxx lands back to back. Yeaah its broke i don't care what bs everyone says. This simply needs fixed and when it is u will have a great game. I did read people saying its just idiots that dont know how to play well bs. I also dont like facing the same Fxxxxxx decks back to back to back . This is magic the gathering or so i thought but u got cry babys out there trying to learn the game boo hooing so yins cradle them and Fxxx the veteran players. What should happen is peolpe whoop your a$$ and then they will build better decks not hand screwed.
fix your stupid shuffler!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bloody ridiculous, Yet again royally mana scr***d on a 17 mana/42 cards draft deck I finished the game with 12 mana played 2 in hand and 29 cards left in my library. How is this still happening constantly.
>Must the class action lawsuit be THE only way to get WotC to respond?
Must the class action lawsuit be THE only way to get WotC to respond? I don't have fun in playing anymore, not just Arena but also paper format because of this behaviour. I don't want to feel scammed every time I want to sit down and relax. Everyday the daily quest grind is like a punishment because 9 out of 10 games is not even a game. Either I get screwed really hard or the opponent folds at turn 2 because it's their turn to get forked over.
Unless you change, hope you follow in Blizzard's footstep. Sink into ruin.
So you're a cheater and you don't understand probability. Enjoy your DQs, idiot.
"Here is my thought on the algorithm. If you want to keep it, than keep it in casual. It has no place in competitive. If I were to try and pin a reason as to why this algorithm exists in competitive, it is only to make players buy different cards. If you are constantly losing with a deck, you will seek out a different deck. Why keep playing a deck when you are losing constantly. In that new deck, you will need new cards. How do we get new cards? It is by paying stupid amounts of money. In an ecosystem where there is no resale value! At least with the paper version, you can resell your cards. Wizards won't even let you trade in digital cards. Well someone is making the most of this pandemic. There are no minor adjustments that can be made to make it better. I honestly believe it is a bad system to try and get people to pay money. Please wizards, find a better shuffler. Maybe ask Hearthstone?"
For you to lose a game, someone else must win it. How do you not understand this? Most players can't lose most of their games. That would require wins to just disappear into some kind of magic black hole. You can't have a situation in a card game where most players are "constantly losing." It is so embarrassing that you're forming conspiracy theories about WOTC contriving to make everyone lose in order to pressure them to buy cards. You spent all this time on a comment and it never once entered your head that in order for everyone to lose, everyone must also win?
In order to pull such a thing off, Wizards would have to create thousands upon thousands of bot accounts or something, which would be totally inconsistent with what everyone observes when they play the game: interactions with other humans, who behave characteristically in ways only humans do.
"Hi. This is not simply bad luck, this is manipulation, rigged game, to steal money from people. My 42-card Midnight Hunt draft deck has 9 plains and 9 swamps. I simply cannot drop the third land, whereas my opponent dropped 9! Congrats Wizards, everyday stealing money, dishonest way to make profit. Someone there in the USA should sue this swindler company. People, do not spend any dime in this game!"
Please explain how wizards could possibly, conceivably steal (or otherwise obtain) money by giving you ****** opening hands or deck shuffles. In what way does that help them? If all you people are serious about demanding a complete refund from wizards and quitting the game forever, then clearly it would be hurting them financially, not helping them. What incentive does WOTC have to give you such bad hands that you demand all your money back and quit the game?
Not that it's actually happening, but if it was, it would only be bad for wizards. And not that I believe you're actually gonna get your money back and quit the game, (you're clearly just puffing a lot of hot air at anyone who will listen for attention) but if you were, it would only be bad for wizards.
None of the outrageous conspiracy theories any of you are describing would actually benefit WOTC or hasbro in any way, shape, or form, unless they somehow had some kind of deal with all the people you're playing against. Is that what you think? That there's some hidden page on the store where you can buy free wins direct from wizards, and somehow all your opponents know about it but you just can't find it? What else would explain this absurd, suicidal behavior you're ascribing to a publicly traded, 5-billion dollar company?
"I often wonder if the "fanboys" who come here to "white knight" WotC use decks that they themselves made or just googled "standard 2022 meta" and copied those decks w/o realizing they are created to manipulate the shuffler. Honestly, if you use fewer cards I've had an easier time. My deck was 27 creatures 10 spells 23 lands and for 180 hours of recorded play I only won 5 games due to mana flood/mana drain/single color mana, or hands that had 1 mana all creatures or all spells. I reduced my deck to 14 creatures 14 spells 32 land and it plays 100% better the algorithm forces playable cards into my hand since I have so few. in the last three days I've won triple the amount of games I used to--to bad I still have the bronze 0 bug for life."
Found another hearthstone player. In MTG, creatures ARE spells. They don't count any differently to the mana smoothing algorithm
"Can we please get the same shuffle system from mtg online in arena?
Arena and MTGO use the same shuffling algorithm that pretty much all video games involving shuffling use, the Fisher-Yates shuffle. The only difference between Arena and MTGO is that Arena draws two hands totaling 14 cards instead of 7. The actual shuffle steps are the same. That is, the 60-card order of cards in your deck is calculated exactly the same way in both clients.
But after that, MTGO just draws 7 cards and shows them to you. Arena draws 7 cards, then another 7 cards, and calculates which hand's land-to-nonland ratio is closer to the land-to-nonland ratio of your *overall deck* and shows you that one.
Let's say your deck has 24 lands and 36 nonlands. It's 40% lands. And let's say Hand 1 has 1 land and 6 nonlands. It's 14% lands. And Hand 2 has 3 lands and 4 nonlands. It's 43% lands. The difference between 40% and 14% is 26%, while the difference between 40% and 43% is 3%. The distance between Hand 2's ratio and your deck's ratio is lower. Therefore, Hand 1 is shuffled back into your deck and Hand 2 is shown to you instead.
Let's say you still don't like the hand. You choose a mulligan. Arena drops the hand smoothing method altogether and just draws you 7 more cards off the top of your Fisher-Yates shuffled deck. It's not the better of 2 hands, it's just the top 7 cards that were on your deck. You shuffle one of them back according to the london mulligan rule.
Therefore your odds of a good land-nonland ratio in your mulligan hands are worse than for your opening hand. You basically get 2 chances at a good 7-card opener. If both options suck then you just get 1 chance at a good 6-card opener, 1 chance at a good 5-card opener, and so on.
MTGO doesn't bother with hand smoothing, so your opening hands in MTGO will be objectively worse, on average, unless you're playing a very unusual deck that for some unknown reason is trying to draw hands that are extremely inconsistent with the deck composition.
Everything I just said has either been stated by magic's developers in public communications or has been statistically ascertained by studies conducted by players. The one caveat to all of this is I don't know how modal DFCs play into the hand smoothing algorithm. Does MTGA count them as lands? As nonlands? Or does it exclude them from the calculation altogether (which seems like the safest option to me)? I don't know, because this research I'm aware of was conducted before modal DFCs were printed.
Maybe more studies have been done since then. I've been a bit out of the arena loop since I only play modern on MTGO since the pandemic struck. Someone please let me know if it's now known how modal DFCs count in the hand smoothing algorithms.
"16 wins in 300 games this month."
That means your opponents need to be winning a vastly disproportionate number of games. How do you think that happened? If the shuffler is broken, why is it only targeting you? Why is it making you lose 95% of your games, and letting your opponents win 95% of the games they play against you? Maybe the shuffler is racist?
Or maybe this is a competitive game that you need to practice and study to hone your skills and knowledge. Maybe you need to learn how to build better decks. Or just copy pro players' decks until you learn how to do it yourself. Maybe you fundamentally misunderstand how the game works, so you're consistently making catastrophic misplays that you're too ignorant to realize were misplays. That seems likely, considering MTGA players collectively have a 50% win rate on average. It's statistically impossible for them not to. For someone to win, their opponent must lose.
If you're struggling to overcome Magic's learning curve, I would strongly recommend reading some strategy guides. I like channelfireball's, they not only post detailed deck guides but also guides on more fundamental aspects of the game like deckbuilding, how to sideboard, how many lands of each color do you need to support a given card, etc.
You can't complain about losing if you're not making an effort to learn. It's not enough to just play the game and hope you eventually magically become good at it. It's not that kind of game. If you want that, play dark souls or halo or something. Great games, totally different thing. Other players are reading and studying and perfecting their craft. They're the ones you play against on the ladder. If you want to win, you have to outcompete them, which means you have to go above and beyond the bare minimum of just queueing up for games and winging it.
"The MOMENT I join the ******** event, a standard BO3 event mind you, same thing I'd been playing all day: 1 Mana every opening hand, mulligan causes 0 mana to be added, or 6."
So many people in here have clearly never played "real magic." They're imagining that this digital game has some secret recipe that deviates from the real card game where nearly every hand is perfect and mulligans always help. This is so wrong. I get that arena has brought loads of new players to magic, and that's fine. Paper is a very limiting way to play the game. I hardly play it anymore. But this huge influx of players who have no idea what playing paper magic is like causes an insane amount of ignorance on a lot of issues.
It's no wonder since the client figures out so many things for you, including but far from limited to shuffling. If you just picked up 2 old precon decks on amazon and played a game against yourself you could easily see how wrong your assumptions are. Opening hands are WORSE in paper. Getting 0-land opening hands happens all the time. Veteran magic players are intimately familiar with mana screw and flood. Why do you think we have those standardized colloquial terms for mana problems in the first place? Anyone who plays paper magic has had experiences of ripping a 0-lander, and mulliganing to somehow draw a 7-lander or something equally bad.
If that wasn't the case, the whole rule of mulliganing wouldn't exist. It has existed since 1994 precisely because mana screw/flood is inherent to any card game with lands and spells. That's why hearthstone doesn't have lands. And that's exactly why veteran magic players assume that most of you "shuffler bellyachers" (as I like to call you) are actually hearthstone players who migrated to MTGA since it's a better game. You're used to always having your mana the turn you need it. You're used to 30-card decks. You're utterly shocked by a hand with no mana, all mana, or 4 copies of a spell. But these are far from impossible events. They are unlikely, yes. But we're talking about a client that shuffles hundreds of thousands of decks a minute. With such a large sample size, eventually some of those are gonna be shuffled in unlikely ways.
People really have a tough time with probability. They can't grasp the difference between impossible and unlikely. They assume unlikely events will never happen to them. Of course you're not likely to win the lottery. But SOMEONE has to win the lottery. And people DO win the lottery. Of course it's never you, since you're only one out of millions. But so was the person who won. You need to make peace with the fact that unlikely events are destined to happen sometimes, and some fraction of the time it's gonna be you to whom they happen, since they have to happen to someone.
Best part of the constant removal of this comment is that it remains first to everyone to see so basically Wotc is promoting that you can get your money back.
IT IS POSSIBLE TO GET YOUR MONEY BACK BECAUSE THIS ISSUE
I got mine back when I brought this issue up and made order issue ticket and I am sure Wotc has to give it to other players also back because the thing they have cooking isn’t technically okay.
If unsatisfied customers don't have time or don't know how to phrase yourself here is the form I used:
I want full refund of my spent money of the purchase -- invoice: --. I have the full amount of gems to refund on my account and you can just delete the sleeves and avatar off my account.
I made the purchase in belief that I would gain gems to play digital equivalent of the original paper Magic the Gathering. After some gaming I realized that this is not the case and the MTGA is far cry from the paper MTG. MTGA uses Hand Smoothing and opponent deciding algorithms at a level I consider egregious, which derives the game to be completely different than the original paper Magic the Gathering. Smoothing causes some players to build their BO1 decks in a fashion that exploits it.
This has not been made clear to the players who makes the purchases which can be seen as intentionally action. It is never mentioned within the game!
When you are not fixing the problem and not clearly and openly speaking about it, shows clear intent and is borderline fraud. If the refund request is not responded during week -- I am forced to contact this issue to the PayPal buyer protection, and after that to Competition and Consumer Authority if there is no sign of your side of co-operation.
“Poker” opening hands, certain cards always at hand in certain decks (looking at you Heliod). This shuffler is a joke.
no way people are crying over rng.
I have ******* had it with this company dudes. This is getting absolutely ridiculous. Played numerous hands in standard today prior to joining a paid game to get more packs/cards and my gold back during play. I dominated with a Warrior equipment deck, 24 lands, even did VERY well with 13 lands.
The MOMENT I join the ******** event, a standard BO3 event mind you, same thing I'd been playing all day: 1 Mana every opening hand, mulligan causes 0 mana to be added, or 6.
This has GOT to ******* stop and WE are the only ones who can do anything about it. You can't even get into contact with Wizards customer service to get your money back. We need to ban together to get this shut down and fixed. Anyone willing to help me with this, message me, email me, however firstname.lastname@example.org, put subject title **** Wizards.
We will DESTROY this piece of **** game.
Five of 8 games two quadruples in the top 15 cards.
THIS GAME IS A ******* JOKE.
16 wins in 300 games this month.
Suspicious draws in every one.
I played five games in a row against agro, and in all of them made it to the bottom 20 cards and didn't find a single board wipe.
Next game, first against control, four board wipes in the top ten cards
Next game control, four board wipes in the top ten cards.
Next game against agro and didn't see a board wipe before I died with 25 cards in my library.
**** your scam of a ******* game, and ******** too.